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1 Pie-onist Overlord  Jul 30, 2014 8:50:08am

Norman Finkelstein has always been anti-Israel.

2 the silent one  Jul 30, 2014 9:37:50am

re: #1 Pie-onist Overlord

Norman Finkelstein has always been anti-Israel.

He’s not Anti Israel. Just Anti - what they are doing to the Palestinians,

3 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Jul 30, 2014 9:39:09am

re: #2 the silent one

He’s not Anti Israel. Just Anti - what they are doing to the Palestinians,

Last time I checked (a few years ago), he was big on the Nazi comparisons and also supported Hezbollah.

4 hellosnackbar  Jul 30, 2014 9:45:09am

I’m basically a libertarian; but if I were a US citizen I could not vote for the backward morons who populate the Republican tea party !

5 Randall Gross  Jul 30, 2014 9:57:35am

re: #3 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

I can be convinced, do you have a credible source link for that?

6 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 10:57:28am

re: #5 Randall Gross

You might want to watch the documentary below, American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein. I watched it a couple of years back because I heard his name so often here and was trying to find something as objective as possible. This fit the bill. It was very informative—it neither demonizes him nor canonizes him—it’s basically a very long interview with him in which he describes exactly what he thinks and why. There are also interviews with those who support him as well as those who revile him.

In a nutshell, it shows him as…well, human. Some of his views are distasteful, but I think I understand why he holds them (a lot of it has to do with his mother) and I largely ended up seeing him as a sort of… I guess a semi-tragic Don Quixote—his insistence on sticking with what he thinks is fair & right has cost him dearly, both personally & professionally. If you have the time to spare, I think you’ll find it a well-spent hour & a half.

Youtube Video

7 Randall Gross  Jul 30, 2014 11:13:31am

re: #6 CuriousLurker

Thanks for the link, however I know about Finklestein - he’s a pacifist / communist with a small “c” and he’s also anti-zionist - but also anti-any tribal state. I can see why his opponents try to paint him as “anti-Israel” (even though to my understanding he supports a two state solution) In many places if you are Jewish and not pro Israel, then you are automatically anti-Israel because in those places it’s black and white, either/or.

8 Redsfanforever  Jul 30, 2014 11:24:04am

Finkelstein isn’t as solidly pro-Palestinian as you might think. In a priceless interview recently, he hammered the pro-BDS interviewer, basically calling out the BDS movement for being dishonest about its true intentions. It’s a bit long, at half an hour, but worth a view:
Video

9 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 12:02:41pm

re: #7 Randall Gross

Ah, okay. I don’t recall hearing about him supporting Hamas (though that obvious doesn’t mean it didn’t happen), but at one point in the film he does express support for Hezbollah. It begins around 1:18:15—he’s in southern Lebanon and says he thinks Hezbollah represents “hope”, then goes on to say, “Sometimes I think it’s a very good thing that Hezbollah inflicted a huge defeat on Israel. [Unintelligible] keep knocking them in[to] the head until they reach their senses.”

In the film he also says he supports a two-state solution.

10 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 12:09:19pm

re: #8 Redsfanforever

Watching it now—interesting. Thanks.

11 Randall Gross  Jul 30, 2014 12:19:53pm

re: #9 CuriousLurker

The post isn’t about Finklestein however, it’s about the current conflict, and how things are getting murkier than ever across the spectrum.

12 Randall Gross  Jul 30, 2014 12:23:39pm

It’s expected that Norm & friends will demonstrate & get arrested - but here’s the money paragraph — which I didn’t post above because I wanted people to click out to read Michelle’s story:

Already, there are anecdotal signs that conventional New York opinion, which tends to be liberal on everything except Palestine, is starting to shift. “If Netanyahu is so bothered by how dead Palestinians look on television then he should stop killing so many of them,” wrote Benjamin Wallace-Wells in a piece on New York magazine’s website last week, a sentiment that would have been hard to imagine coming from that publication a few years ago. Today, the magazine’s DC columnist Jonathan Chait, an occasionally hawkish veteran of The New Republic, has a post titled, “Why I Have Become Less Pro-Israel.” According to a recent CNN poll, while a majority of Americans continue to support Israel, 38 percent have an unfavorable opinion of the country, up fourteen points since February.

13 CuriousLurker  Jul 30, 2014 12:35:17pm

re: #11 Randall Gross

Yeah, it’s a mess and getting messier. Like our own politics, it seems like it’s becoming more & more polarized, with the two sides only talking to their own base instead of to each other. Israel is pretty clearly losing support over this.

FWIW, I did read the article. I was only trying to help WRT Finklestein because of the allegation of Hamas support you asked about.

14 Rameau  Jul 30, 2014 1:06:36pm

I can’t help wondering whether those liberals who sympathize with Finkelstein’s protest are also the ones who, like the NYT, oppose drone warfare, They have been around for quite a while.

15 Charles Johnson  Jul 30, 2014 1:40:52pm

I have to admit I’m still not a fan of Finkelstein, although I think he’s been unfairly maligned by right wingers to an extent. There’s something about him that creeps me out - could be his arguments that Jews “use the Holocaust” to insulate themselves from criticism. That’s just a really fucked up argument for many reasons.

And I also find his support for Hezbollah extremely disturbing. If he really favors a two-state solution, how can he possibly praise Hezbollah at the same time — a group that openly advocates genocide against Jews?

However, I also agree with the points Randall made above about Israel losing the moral advantage. In the first couple of years after the 9/11 attacks, people seem to have forgotten the absolutely horrific wave of suicide bombings that Hamas and Fatah perpetrated in Israel against women, children, and people in restaurants. For me, that made the moral situation pretty clear.

But in the current conflict, the indiscriminate bombing of civilians is just horrible and is really changing things for me. Israel can’t keep doing this; they’re squandering whatever moral advantages they might have had.

Not to mention the drastic swing to the far right of the Israeli government in past years, and the rise in popularity of people like Avigdor Lieberman, Pamela Geller, Frank Gaffney, and a host of European far right groups. This is also very disturbing, and it’s changing the calculus enormously for me, and I suspect for many others like me.

16 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 4:05:44pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

He does not “favor” the Two State Solution. That is a misunderstanding. Finkelstein supports the Two State Solution but with some very important caveats. First of all, he only believes in it as an interim solution because he feels the world will not accept a Palestinian One State Solution so he thinks that a Two State Solution with Israel returning the entire W. Bank including Jerusalem (which is about as realistic as unicorns jumping out of rainbows to deliver everyone candy) will just “have to do” (paraphrased).

Second of all he advocates for Palestinian Right of Return to pre 1967 Israel where Palestinians are currently 22% of the population they would go to at least 55-60%. In this case there would be the creation of a Palestinian State and… another Palestinian State. So with Palestinian RoR there is no Two State Solution unless one means two Palestinian States.

Charles, I would really take a look at what is happening before seeing support change. As I asked earlier…

“I will grant you that the destruction to Gaza is heartbreaking but that the same time I don’t really see any other way this can be done. Remember, Hamas (with support of the Gazan population after all they elected them and continue to support them in polls) would quite happy if most of those 2,000+ rockets they shoot at Israeli cities would be hitting.

So, I would ask that if you have a better way… please let us know.”

17 Charles Johnson  Jul 30, 2014 4:13:02pm

re: #16 Kravmavolley

Yes, Hamas was elected in 2006, but in 2007 they violently seized power after a struggle with Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah, and haven’t held an election since then. And the latest polls show that the people of Gaza are turning against Hamas pretty decisively; for example, this poll from pewglobal.org

63% unfavorable in Gaza. That’s a decisive majority. So I’m not sure it’s accurate any more to say that the people of Gaza continue to support Hamas.

18 Charles Johnson  Jul 30, 2014 4:17:44pm

More: Gaza Public Rejects Hamas, Wants Ceasefire

As tensions mounted and Hamas and other Gazan factions began to step up rocket fire last month, the people of that territory were heavily in favor of a ceasefire — 70 percent of the poll respondents agreed or strongly agreed with the statement “Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel in both Gaza and the West Bank.” This attitude is corroborated by the 73 percent of Gazans who said Palestinians should adopt “proposals for (nonviolent) popular resistance against the occupation.” Similarly, when asked if Hamas should accept Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas’s position that the new unity government renounce violence against Israel, a clear majority (57 percent) answered in the affirmative. The responses to all three questions clearly indicate that most Gazans reject military escalation. Attitudes may have shifted since the poll due to anger at Israeli airstrikes, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the Gazan public still supports a ceasefire.

19 klys  Jul 30, 2014 4:21:53pm

Pretty sure we can all agree that the children in Gaza didn’t vote for Hamas (just like the children in Israel didn’t vote for the current government)? And maybe we should all be looking for ways to stop the death of children on both sides?

20 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 4:29:42pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Certainly Charles it is true that Hamas does enjoy an anemic favorability rating with people in Gaza. HOWEVER, according to a poll in March (taken by a Palestinian polling group and considered accurate), even though Hamas did enjoy a stellar 35% favorable rating, the people of Gaza would still have put them into power in an election where Ismail Haniyeh (the leader of Hamas in Gaza) went against P.A. President and Fatah Leader Mahmoud Abbas. Here is that poll (there are some other very interesting things in there as well).

One thing I have to say is that as a new person… this place seems like a “breath of fresh air”. No screeching on a very controversial subject, simply solid discussion. So thanks for that and much appreciated.

21 Kravmavolley  Jul 30, 2014 4:36:02pm

re: #19 klys

Yes… This…

We should all be looking for ways to stop this on a permanent basis.

22 Randall Gross  Jul 31, 2014 4:58:37am

I don’t see Hamas as a legitimate government, I think they are terrorists. I don’t see Finklestein as one of the credible voices protesting against Israel. That said, Israel’s current government has about used up all of their get out of jail free cards with me.


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