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20 comments

1 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 1, 2014 10:41:23am

Good to see that they don’t repeat the Buk nonsense. As for whether this is evidence or not, this depends entirely on how exact geotagging is. All those villages are a few km. from the border, so if the margin of error is big enough…

2 otoc  Aug 1, 2014 11:06:03am

Geotagging from a cell phone has a margin of error of 15 ft.
Geotagging
I think the fact that he hasn’t made a post to his Instagram account in 4 days now is telling us something.

3 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 1, 2014 11:20:42am

re: #1 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator

re: #2 otoc

Updated as per seems appropriate. Opinions will vary so I’ll just keep the update and add anything really reliable as/if i get it.

4 klys  Aug 1, 2014 12:53:45pm

re: #2 otoc

Geotagging from a cell phone has a margin of error of 15 ft.
Geotagging
I think the fact that he hasn’t made a post to his Instagram account in 4 days now is telling us something.

If one is using a GPS system for location, yes.

From your article:

Many smartphones and digital cameras come with built-in GPS with a geotagging feature that embeds at least the latitude and longitude coordinates of your location. Geotagging has an accuracy of within 15 feet.

However, a lot of people don’t necessarily keep the GPS on their phone turned on all the time. It can be a pretty power-hungry feature, and it’s not necessary for a lot of the things the phone does. The phone can still make a guess regarding the location by using the location of cell phone towers, however. In Android terms, this is referred to as the “coarse location” while information from GPS would be described as “fine location.” The margin of error on the coarse location is going to be substantially larger than that of the fine location. If you have a smartphone and are curious about this, pull up Google Maps. They will show you your location and a circle surrounding you. That circle represents the uncertainty in your position. It’s a whole lot bigger if you have GPS turned off.

I don’t know if Instagram is set to use the coarse location information if the fine location is not available; I deleted my account there several years ago after some of their more spectacular copyright derp. My guess is it’s likely. Of course, none of this rules out the possibility that he did have GPS turned on and therefore the geotagging is accurate. I offer it only to provide some context and background.

5 otoc  Aug 1, 2014 1:19:45pm

re: #4 klys

Which is why I’ve learned to include a link here at LGF, where we all look at variables instead of simply accepting. I hear you.

Here’s another one from Instagram…

What is a geotag?

Geotagging is a technical term for storing the latitude and longitude of your current location with your photo. This data is collected by the GPS device in your phone or tablet and is accessible to Instagram if you grant permission.

If you’d like to turn this off, please consult your phone/tablet manufacturer’s instructions and settings.

Personally, the more I look, I think if Instagram says they access GPS (or don’t record the info) and this nitwit stopped his Instagram posting after he got outed there’s a good chance Occam’s razor applies here.

Here’s another link to Business Insider
A Russian Soldier’s Instagram Posts May Be The Clearest Indication Of Moscow’s Involvement In East Ukraine

With Instagram’s geotagging feature, these two photos pulled the latitude and longitude from the GPS on his phone or tablet, placing him well inside Ukraine. Location data is added to photos as long as the user selects “add to photo map” before posting.

Since it’s based on GPS data, geolocation on Instagram is usually pretty accurate. However, as Seddon writes in his post, there is always the possibility Sotkin “spoofed” his GPS signal, or more simply put: used equipment to fake a location signal.

Even if that’s the case, it doesn’t seem it would make much sense.

Seems like RWC might have nailed it…
“So busted. Oh sooo busted.”

Of course there’s an element of chance that the data was spoofed, but why spoof data that says Russians were inside Ukraine? If he was in uniform that would be quite an offense in the Russian Army considering what their stated position has been. OTOH, youth and stupidity can be a revealing thing.

6 Rightwingconspirator  Aug 1, 2014 1:42:40pm

re: #5 otoc

re: #4 klys

Well this got interesting huh?

Digital tech is pretty reliable, somewhere there may well be the metadata in the file of the phone settings or the GPS origin if it’s a cell or wifi. the soldier stopping his posting was certainly gonna happen, I seem to recall some American troops getting in hot water for less.

OTOH
Fog of war. Who knows what all sensors or jammers or plain old military radio traffic might to to a civilian GPS in a phone.

Evidence is rarely perfect or from a perfect source. But the bits and pieces fall into place over time. I think this falls on the Russians are helping directly side of the coin. Just one more reason if imperfect to think the whole crisis and the airliner shoot down can be laid at the feet of Vladimir Putin and Russian um perhaps Neo Soviet nationalism.

7 klys  Aug 1, 2014 1:43:33pm

re: #5 otoc

Which is why I’ve learned to include a link here at LGF, where we all look at variables instead of simply accepting. I hear you.

Here’s another one from Instagram…

Personally, the more I look, I think if Instagram says they access GPS (or don’t record the info) and this nitwit stopped his Instagram posting after he got outed there’s a good chance Occam’s razor applies here.

Here’s another link to Business Insider
A Russian Soldier’s Instagram Posts May Be The Clearest Indication Of Moscow’s Involvement In East Ukraine

Seems like RWC might have nailed it…
“So busted. Oh sooo busted.”

Of course there’s an element of chance that the data was spoofed, but why spoof data that says Russians were inside Ukraine? If he was in uniform that would be quite an offense in the Russian Army considering what their stated position has been. OTOH, youth and stupidity can be a revealing thing.

So I couldn’t find more online digging into whether Instagram was willing to use coarse locations, but I figured I would at least see what information Android embeds into photos if geotagging is turned on - after all, if it can only write latitude and longitude if the GPS is on, then that would be pretty clear. (And yes, I’m testing Android here because that’s what I have, but I doubt iOS is substantially different here?)

Forgive me for not posting proof, since I’m sitting at home playing with this stuff and the cell tower location is pretty accurate around here (coverage is good enough) but despite not having the GPS on, Google was able to tag my photo with coordinates using the cell phone tower information. It’s pretty clear to me that Google can geotag photos without requiring the GPS turned on (I keep mine off all the time); the question then becomes is Instagram using the same type of functionality.

Google’s changed the way permissions are listed on the Play store so I can’t see which level of permissions the Instagram app asks for (if it’s just fine location or coarse and fine).

8 klys  Aug 1, 2014 1:45:13pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

Well this got interesting huh?

Digital tech is pretty reliable, somewhere there may well be the metadata in the file of the phone settings or the GPS origin if it’s a cell or wifi. the soldier stopping his posting was certainly gonna happen, I seem to recall some American troops getting in hot water for less.

OTOH
Fog of war. Who knows what all sensors or jammers or plain old military radio traffic might to to a civilian GPS in a phone.

Evidence is rarely perfect or from a perfect source. But the bits and pieces fall into place over time. I think this falls on the Russians are helping directly side of the coin. Just one more reason if imperfect to think the whole crisis and the airliner shoot down can be laid at the feet of Vladimir Putin and Russian um perhaps Neo Soviet nationalism.

Worth reiterating, my points on the geotagging are more being made out of a desire to see accurate information reflected and not because I don’t think Russia is in the area. :)

9 bubba zanetti  Aug 1, 2014 1:46:26pm

Also, the image shows the photos clustered to prevent noisy overlapping of the icons, so their position has been combined, averaged, and possibly shifted so that they display better. You would have to check the individual photos’ data to have a better idea.

10 bubba zanetti  Aug 1, 2014 1:48:54pm

Not to mention often locations are fuzzed slightly by dropping significant figures or using the center of a containing administrative boundary.

11 bubba zanetti  Aug 1, 2014 2:38:07pm

Well, just for giggles I pulled Instagram location metadata from the photo where he has his hand over eye, and the location is given as:

48.8697, 39.822986667

which according to Google Maps is inside the Ukraine.

That’s not EXIF data so we don’t know if that number is influenced by Instagram’s storage system or anything.

12 otoc  Aug 1, 2014 2:39:08pm

re: #7 klys

iOS uses what they call “Location Services” which in Apple-speak relies on GPS or Wifi network location, or Cell Triangulation. Turning GPS off means turning off all “Location Services”. Which makes me ponder whether the Instagram quote I posted was entirely accurate with iOS.

I just tried Instagram with my Location Services on with my iPhone. Nailed the location within feet. I was indoors, but my GPS app showed that GPS locationing was working.

You do need to specifically approve the feature within Instagram your first time out as I found.

I definately understood your point, btw. ;)

13 klys  Aug 1, 2014 2:44:27pm

re: #11 bubba zanetti

Well, just for giggles I pulled Instagram location metadata from the photo where he has his hand over eye, and the location is given as:

48.8697, 39.822986667

which according to Google Maps is inside the Ukraine.

That’s not EXIF data so we don’t know if that number is influenced by Instagram’s storage system or anything.

The question isn’t necessarily whether it’s EXIF data, it’s how the location information is generated. If it’s from GPS signal, then it should be pretty accurate. If it’s based on cell tower location, the margin of error is larger.

Android phones (and presumably iOS as well) are capable of geotagging photos even without the GPS turned on. What isn’t clear is if Instagram is accessing these features and, if it is, whether the location data on these photos was generated by GPS data or cell tower locations.

re: #12 otoc

iOS uses what they call “Location Services” which in Apple-speak relies on GPS or Wifi network location, or Cell Triangulation. Turning GPS off means turning off all “Location Services”. Which makes me ponder whether the Instagram quote I posted was entirely accurate with iOS.

I just tried Instagram with my Location Services on with my iPhone. Nailed the location within feet. I was indoors, but my GPS app showed that GPS locationing was working.

You do need to specifically approve the feature within Instagram your first time out as I found.

I definately understood your point, btw. ;)

I agree, Instagram certainly doesn’t give a clear answer one way or another.

I’ve been buried in some of the Android location services stuff for a while since I’ve been working on teaching myself development for the system, which is why I wonder where they’re pulling the location information from.

14 bubba zanetti  Aug 1, 2014 2:49:26pm

re: #13 klys

The question isn’t necessarily whether it’s EXIF data, it’s how the location information is generated.

Actually, it is. We don’t know what Instagram does with location data, and whether it stores exactly what it is given, and whether the API is returning the same data it received. For reasons of speed and storage space they may be storing something like a geohash and their stored value and/or API response might be a lower accuracy representation of that location.

15 klys  Aug 1, 2014 2:51:25pm

re: #14 bubba zanetti

Actually, it is. We don’t know what Instagram does with location data, and whether it stores exactly what it is given, and whether the API is returning the same data it received. For reasons of speed they may be storing something like a geohash and their storage or API might be a lower accuracy representation of that location.

Fair point. So there are multiple possible issues.

16 Dark_Falcon  Aug 1, 2014 7:30:20pm

Instagram caught that Russian red-handed, but you what Russia’s response will be: “Instagram is a American company, therefore this is just an ‘Ami’ plot to frame Russia and protect Ukrainian Fascists!”

/I wish I was kidding.

17 Islamo-Masonic Conspirator  Aug 2, 2014 2:03:41am

US and Ukraine have furnished evidence of Russian Grads shelling the Ukrainian territory like what, 1 week ago? And you’re arguing about whether one soldier might or might not have crossed the border once or twice? The former I call “busted”. The latter I call “meh” (at least comparatively speaking; it might have been interesting if we didn’t already have all the crucial evidence of Russia’s involvement).

18 otoc  Aug 2, 2014 10:54:07am

re: #9 bubba zanetti

Also, the image shows the photos clustered to prevent noisy overlapping of the icons, so their position has been combined, averaged, and possibly shifted so that they display better. You would have to check the individual photos’ data to have a better idea.

That’s true based on my Instagram test with my iPhone. But those groups show a general area averaged for a zone. So it works in this context. Each image will have the specific geotag gps info that shows where he walked in that zone.

re: #14 bubba zanetti

Actually, it is. We don’t know what Instagram does with location data, and whether it stores exactly what it is given, and whether the API is returning the same data it received. For reasons of speed and storage space they may be storing something like a geohash and their stored value and/or API response might be a lower accuracy representation of that location.

According to the Instagram SDK for the iPhone, it simply passes the location_id from the phone. I didn’t spend time with the Android which I assume has minor differences. But to assume it is geohashing when the sdk and Instagram notices and interviews say geotag pretty much point to geotag.

19 bubba zanetti  Aug 2, 2014 1:01:56pm

re: #18 otoc

According to the Instagram SDK for the iPhone, it simply passes the location_id from the phone. I didn’t spend time with the Android which I assume has minor differences. But to assume it is geohashing when the sdk and Instagram notices and interviews say geotag pretty much point to geotag.

That’s on the client device. We generally don’t know what’s happening on the server side. However in the case of Instagram, they’ve said they use Postgres and PostGIS, which stores point geometry as actual latitude and longitude values.

Had he used Flickr it would be a different story - their locations include an accuracy value, which I assume corresponds to the bit length of a geohashed location.

The key things are:

1) We don’t know the accuracy of the geodata coming from client device
2) We may not know if the server is storing and/or returning the same value
3) Maps of locations may make tradeoffs in accuracy for display clarity.

20 otoc  Aug 2, 2014 1:24:12pm

re: #19 bubba zanetti

That’s on the client device. We generally don’t know what’s happening on the server side. However in the case of Instagram, they’ve said they use Postgres and PostGIS, which stores point geometry as actual latitude and longitude values.

Had he used Flickr it would be a different story - their locations include an accuracy value, which I assume corresponds to the bit length of a geohashed location.

The key things are:

1) We don’t know the accuracy of the geodata coming from client device
2) We may not know if the server is storing and/or returning the same value
3) Maps of locations may make tradeoffs in accuracy for display clarity.

My opinion is for this topic, it is close enough for government work, no pun intended but I’ll take it. Surely we don’t need a result within inches to know the probability of Russians on Ukraine soil is very high.

When I ran my iPhone test, I stated my Instagram map was within feet of my actual location: the issue here would be miles. Plus, the EXIF info for GPS matched my GPS app. It appears Instagram reads and logs the actual info without any manipulation.


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